Ck2 Demesne Too Big Penalty: Why It Matters and How to Minimize It

You want to hold every single county in two duchies you own that are either bordering each other, or very close to each other. These two duchies should together have 7 to 10 counties so that you can use most of your demesne limit without having to construct holdings.

Ck2 Demesne Too Big Penaltyl

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By keeping your entire demesne in two duchies you avoid the penalty from having more than two duchies, and you avoid the penalties for vassals desiring your duchies. No vassals will thus be able to plot for your duchies, thus keeping your powerbase secure.

The advantage of keeping your demesne limited to a small geographical area is that you can now gather up your army very quickly, so you'll be able to respond quickly to any rebellion with very low risk of your units being picked off separately.

Conquering becomes much less fun if you're already at your demesne limit, and you immediately have to give away the spoils of war, else be smacked with huge relationship penalties. I prefer a softer more gradual limit on demesne size that focuses on managing the relations with your subjects.* Demesne limit significantly increased, for all intents and purposes removing it as a game mechanic.* Only -1 relations per holding over demesne. Much smaller tax penalty.* No relationship penalties apply for holding more than 2 duchies.

If you still manage to become North Korean, the idea is that your courtiers will become more of a threat rather than your vassals:* The bigger your demesne, the unhappier your courtiers will become.* New plot: courtiers with a negative opinion of you will conspire to murder you and usurp your primary title.* Crime modifiers (such as thieves' guild) will happen to your provinces if you have a large demesne. These can be removed by councillor missions.

It's too easy to keep a large realm under control by having a large number of weak vassals, making it harder for them to band together and make an effective fist against you. To force you to keep a limited number of more powerful vassals:* Rulers lose -1 relation with all vassals per vassal they have.To prevent being punished for simply having barony vassals under your county titles:* Rulers gain +3 to vassal relations per holding in his/her demesne. This bonus cannot exceed the malus from number of vassals.

Crusader Kings II can be seen as a relationship management game. Having a high crown authority significantly reduces that aspect of the game, as you then get lots of troops from your vassals regardless of their opinion of you. I attempt to change this:* Crown authority has little effect on vassal levies. Absolute crown authority only provides a minimum of 20% rather than 80%.* Instead crown authority affects retinue. With Autonomous Vassals you gain no retinue from realm holdings. At Absolute Crown Authority you receive 16 retinue points per realm holding.* Independent rulers gain 160 retinue per demesne holding.* For vassals it depends on crown authority. Under Autonomous Vassals they receive the full 160 retinue. Under Absolute crown authority they get nothing.

In RIP vassals rather ask themselves "What is the best way for me to weaken my liege and gain more power for myselfwithin this realm?". This results in the following:* The bigger the liege's personal demesne, the more likely vassals will join gavelkind factions. With very large demesnes, opinion 100 would be required to keep them out of the gavelkind faction.* The bigger the realm, the higher the opinion threshold to keep different dynasty vassals out of the elective faction.* The bigger the realm, the higher the opinion threshold to keep same dynasty vassals out of the seniority and tanistry factions.* Vassals no longer limited to joining 2 factions.

Common forum opinion is that Intrigue and Learning are much weaker stats than Diplomacy, Martial and Stewardship. Due to removing demesne limit as a barrier, Stewardship in RIP can be added to the list of weak attributes. To make these more attractive:* Stewardship affects the opinion of your city vassals. +/-1 opinion per point above/below 10 Stewardship.* Intrigue affects the opinion of your courtiers and councillors. +/-2 opinion per point above/below 10 Intrigue.* Learning affects the opinion of your temple vassals. +/-1 opinion per point above/below 10 Learning.

Paradox added a negative levy modifier to holdings the further they were away from your capital duchy, to slow down blobbing. RIP makes some modifications:* Capital kingdom vassals still give 100% of their levy. This change in fact creates stronger AI opponents.* Within-empire vassals give 50% of levy. Outside empire it's 35%.* Your own demesne now gets the same levy modifier.* To compensate, four buildings have been added, Estates General I to IV, unlocked by the Tolerance tech, increasing levy size. They can be built in holdings which fall outside your capital kingdom, but of which you still hold the de jure kingdom/empire title.

Although within the royal demesne, Normandy retained some specificity. Norman law continued to serve as the basis for court decisions. In 1315, faced with the constant encroachments of royal power on the liberties of Normandy, the barons and towns pressed the Norman Charter on the king. This document did not provide autonomy to the province but protected it against arbitrary royal acts. The judgments of the Exchequer, the main court of Normandy, were declared final. This meant that Paris could not reverse a judgment of Rouen.[18] Another important concession was that the King of France could not raise a new tax without the consent of the Normans. However the charter, granted at a time when royal authority was faltering, was violated several times thereafter when the monarchy had regained its power.[19]

• I'm in the tiny minority of gamers who enjoys Paradox games. I often enjoy quite a lot of complexity in games I play - some of them like Magic: The Gathering are among the most complex games ever created (Magic's Comprehensive Rules are about 200 pages, and then add to it over 13,000 cards), and I just love discovering unusual interactions between disconnected parts of the ruleset.Complexity in games can be not only fine, but amazing. On the other hand quite often it backfires horribly, and one really good example of such misuse of complexity is Crusader Kings 2's combat system.How does it workHere's a quick summary of just major CK2 combat elements by coanda. It doesn't really cover half of it like sieges, morale, army recruitment and upkeep, traits you can get in battle, chance of death during battle and so on.Even that limited part of combat system looks really interesting at first - different unit types, multiple combat phases, interactions of different tactics, commander influence with separate commanders on each flank. Well, sure, there's the usual complaint that none of that is explained anywhere, but that's just the way Paradox games are. That's not the real problem.The real problem is that nothing about the combat system translates to meaningful player actions.Wait, what?Different unit types are good against different opponents? Too bad, your demesne army is just a random mix of all unit types. Your vassals' levies? You have even less control over these mixes. Mercenaries? Almost the same story. You have a lot more control over your retinue, but then retinues are just overpowered without needing any special tactics and if a mod nerfs them down to reasonable size (like just about all of them do) they'll no longer affect your army composition significantly.Different commanders having modifiers for unit types? Too bad again, all armies are just a random mix of everything, so it doesn't matter who you assign to lead whom.Using terrain to give your mix of army advantage over opponent? (different unit types have different bonuses depending on terrain) The bonuses are pretty low and armies on both sides will be fairly similar mixes so it just turns into general terrain bonus equal to about their average.And even if by some change you have perfect commander for your mix of troops - it still won't matter all that much, since he's only 1 of 3 commanders.Basically everything a player can do other than:having bigger army

• appointing commanders with higher stats

• defending on difficult terrain

• is nearly completely worthless because hundreds of positive and negative bonuses that different parts of player's and opponent's armies get for these fancy things end averaged up to approximately zero.The result of this highly complex system is that it leaves all players feeling that "bigger army wins" and that's they need to know.Simple grokable systems are the answerMeanwhile EU3 had far simpler combat system - one commander, three unit types (infantry, cavalry, and artillery - all with tech-dependent fire, shock, and morale stats), everything expressed as straightforwardly additive numbers. And even though EU3's system was so much simpler - it led to many interesting interactions and it wasn't outside realm of possibility to defeat armies many times larger than your own by taking advantage of the system. (with navies even more spectacular victories were achievable, but AI stupidity also had a lot to do with it)CK2's complexity doesn't lead to wonderful scenarios like "I'm going to bait French knights harrassing them with my light cavalry, then my spearmen will ambush them in hard terrain and finish them off easily" (the kind of stuff that's so common in all Total War games) - it leads to everything getting so mixed up that it's provides far fewer actionable options than EU3.For contrast take a look at arumba's Clear Combat mod - it basically rips out the entire tactics system out of CK2 and replaces it with a very simple system based on just commander's martial ability. Does that reduce player's ability to do interesting things? Hardly! Unless you're playing with Mongol event troops (85%-cavalry army, and most of that horse archers) or some other event troops, you can basically do all the things you did before and they'll have pretty much the same effect, except now it's all much simpler and better presented.Complexity is not a value in itselfComplexity in games is valuable if there are ways to interact with it - if it's just an excuse to roll a thousand dice behind player's back and average the results then its existence is completely pointless.There are so many ways to turn CK2 combat system into something that players can interact with, and much simpler at the same time. Here are just the first few ideas that come to mind:Group troops in armies by type, not by levy origin. Then you could rearrange them on flanks the way you want and assign appropriate commanders to each unit type. (possible impossible to mod)

• At least have mercenaries of just one or two unit types, with big culture specific bonuses (like retinues) so you can use them this way. (that should be very easy to mod)

• Have very large terrain modifiers to different terrain types, so with even slightly more cavalry-heavy army you'd really want to stick to plains, while your slightly more infantry-heavy opponent would really want to stick to heavy terrain. (not too hard to mod, but AI will probably have no clue)

• Give different unit types very different uses, for example cavalry can't siege (like in EU3), only light units can loot. (probably very hard to mod)

• Have primary commander much larger impact over the entire battle, instead of just 1/3 of it. (I'm not sure how that works exactly)

• Have commanders or terrain or something else controllable strongly determine length or importance of battle phases. For example in forest you have no skirmish, just instant melee, on plains skirmish is twice as long, or something like that. And I don't mean insignificant 10% bonus, but something that would make a big difference. (not sure how moddable that would be)

• Have an option to just harass enemy then flee. If your army is mostly light cavalry and horse archers, and their is mostly melee infantry that should let you bleed them a little at little cost then flee without actually losing the battle (and war score). Of course there should be a chance of this failing miserably if your commander is bad. (this looks doable with some heavy modding within existing tactics system)

• Just throw the complexity away like ClearCombat and put it in some other part of the game where it can be interacted with.

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